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All comments by Max Schireson
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David,

The offense would not be a failure to act on past evidence.

The offense would be having a pair actually cheat on your team. Past evidence or actual knowledge would not be necessary.

Yes, I think past conduct would be examined closely. If I were going to put together a team under this structure, I think the process would be something like:

1. Ask around about the pairs I am considering. Right now people presumably ask around regarding perceived skill; if this rule were in place people would as around about possible cheating too. I might ask Steve Weinstein and Michael Rosenberg and Boye Brogeland if they would have any worries about a given pair. There are 3 cases:
A - they tell me absolutely no worries, they are extremely confident that pair is not cheating. I hire the pair and don’t worry
B - they tell me they don’t really know; they have no significant suspicions but don’t have enough knowledge of the pair to be 100% certain
C - they tell me that I should be careful hiring this pair

Let’s say A is 20% B is 70% and C is 10%.

In case A I hire the pair and that’s that.

In case B I hire the pair, and I hire an auditor for the team. For example, I pay Kit Woolsey or someone to keep an eye on the teams results and report anything suspicious to me. Note that every public company has auditors to double check the financial statements; this is in significant part to prevent fraud. If you say you sold company X $500k of your product, the auditor calls them and asks if they bought $500k of your product (among other things that they do).

In case C I don’t hire the pair.

I think most people organizing serious teams would have sufficient contacts to be able to follow a process like this, which I think would reduce the likelihood of cheating on those teams quite a lot. Those who did not would almost always have a partner who did.

Top level players putting together amateur teams would have the skills to audit themselves; sponsors who were short of that hiring pros would hire top level players for that role. Right now people hire coaches etc; why not also invest in keeping the game clean.
May 9, 2019
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I don’t think they need LM status anyway, since they are able to play in LM pairs based on equivalent status in another bridge organization.
May 9, 2019
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Also opener could sometimes have only two cards in their minor - if they opened 1H with 4=5=2=2.
May 8, 2019
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Timo:

I never intended to convince anyone why it’s ok to play against Lanzarotti.

I did repeat the arguments I heard that led to me entering an event they were playing in. I am still not sure that decision was right, but I am happy that Sabine and Roy presented what seems to be a principled framework that seems consistent with the decision I made.

Truth be told I still feel moderately uncomfortable about my decision, but given the choice between:
1. Taking a strong stand against a cheater who was convicted before my time and served his sentence - when I judged that others would not join - at the potential cost of not being able to play competitive bridge
2. Accepting a decision I strongly disagree with by the ACBL to readmit that player

I mostly did the second. I did my little protest of boycotting hotel blocks for a year (still in progress), but wasn’t willing to potentially give up serious bridge events over the issue.

I apologize if my repeating what others told me about why they thought it was ok came across as supporting the idea of playing against Lanzarotti.

In the end I made the practical decision to make only a low-personal-cost protest against something I thought was wrong and worthy of protest, but not so unspeakably wrong as to be willing to protest without regard to personal cost.

Others can judge whether this was a reasonable decision but I don’t want to pretend I thought readmitting Lanzarotti was remotely ok, or not bad enough to be worthy of protest.
May 8, 2019
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John,

I will admit that I could be wrong but the unpopularity of my idea hasn’t convinced me that its wrong - only that it won’t happen and therefore isn’t worth pursuing.

Yes, my thought was a one year suspension from playing for a first offense. I think this would lead to behavior change, not just in who was hired but questions about fortunate leads and defenses for example, that would clean up the game. I am not saying those questions would always catch cheaters, but the change in culture would be significant and I think helpful.

Since cheating convictions are extremely rare the number of souls sacrificed would also be small, and their sacrifice would be temporary. As to whether they are innocent, I agree they likely would be innocent of deliberate wrongdoing, but sometimes they might be guilty of insufficient oversight.

My default would be a suspension for first time offenders, but I outlined a set of circumstances in which first time offenders might get leniency. Those circumstances might not be exactly right, but the idea was that if they were innocent not only of deliberate wrongdoing but also of insufficient oversight they might not be suspended.

I think the notion that a captain is actually responsible for their team is new, and people seem not to like it. Perhaps it loses more than it gains.
May 8, 2019
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So now your issue isn’t whether they changed their mind but whether they admitted changing their mind? Or whether and how they would address whether they changed their mind?

You are losing the forest for the trees. This has nothing to do with “betraying their own words”. I am done discussing this with you.
May 8, 2019
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Felix,

“more importantly, is to betray their own words”

This is what you have wrong.

Changing your mind is not betraying your own words. Sometimes you have a better idea. Even if you don’t like their new idea, it seems very clear that it is designed to achieve the same goals as what was previously discussed.

I do not favor criminalizing teammates in general. I do think that the leader of an organization- including a bridge team - needs to be accountable for its conduct. Captains, not teammates. I only point this out because you mischaracterized what I said, which others have said is a pattern in your posts here (I have not read carefully enough to know). My idea may be misguided but it is not what you describe it to be.

“not knowing how to make myself look good”

If you stop obsessing about “betraying their own words” when that’s not a reasonable description of what happened, and stop mischaracterizing peoples statements, not only will you look better (which you may or may not care about) but I predict you would participate more productively in the discussion. You might even win more people to your side on an issue you say you care about.

It is true that you made some other suggestions, I apologize for suggesting that you are only attacking others, that was wrong and unfair.
May 7, 2019
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Felix - you are having trouble finding the right word because Roy is not trying to (anything) himself.

Sabine and Roy are trying to find the best way to deal with a difficult situation that they did not create. It is clear that they feel passionately about it, as do many of us.

I am not interested in parsing exactly what each player said before to compare it to what they are saying now to see if their view of how best to keep the game clean has changed. I am interested in good ideas to keep the game clean. I think entering and refusing to play against certain opponents is one such idea and I am glad that Sabine and Roy are doing that and publicly discussing their choice. Others believe it is better to not enter, which I also understand, even if my view is that Sabine and Roy’s choice will create more “noise” and hence has more chance of causing change.

This course of action is also more difficult and risky for Sabine and Roy, so the idea that they are somehow backing away from a commitment against cheaters is senseless.

For you it seems to be all about finding or creating some basis to attack well known players for changing their views, so I am not surprised that you think Roy’s statements are self-referential. The rest of us hear an earnest discussion about how best to keep cheaters out of the game. We may not agree, and we may change our minds, but we are trying.

You may think your comments somehow make you look good because you are “taking down” a famous player. Actually they make you look petty and small minded because you are missing the point.
May 7, 2019
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Robb,

For the record I don’t think anyone should be punished for playing with a rumored pair. I am only saying that someone should be responsible for *actual* convicted cheaters on a team.
May 7, 2019
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I initially found this argument compelling and therefore thought invitational seemed logical (putting aside what I had discussed with my partner and forgot, doh!)

But it seems that there is trade off: when you cue bid then support hearts, you might also have something like xxx Jx Kxx AKQxx and be offering a 52 heart fit? Do you have some other way to bid that hand? It seems playing 3H as GF with 3(+?) card support lets you make your real heart support clear in case either partner has slam interest.
May 7, 2019
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Thanks. If I saw that document I forgot, but now I know!
May 6, 2019
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I am with Marty, I can’t think of a hand where I would make that bid without agreement. If my partner did bid that way, I would guess invitational with hearts and a club suit they couldn’t bear to not bid. Maybe xx, Kxx, KQJTxx, Jx.
May 6, 2019
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I recall one hand one which I revoked on defense. I wasn’t sure what the rule was, but I was aware that on defense it could create a problem for me to give partner information about the hand while we were defending.

I had no idea what to do.

I saw the director in the direction of the restroom. I put my cards down and said excuse me and ran towards him. (Yes I acknowledge that this is not provided for under the Laws!). I quickly and quietly told him I had revoked on defense and asked what I was supposed to do. He said go back and play the hand, no need to report it and next time I probably shouldn’t make the fact that I had a problem so obvious.

I ran back to my seat and played the rest of the hand feeling very uncomfortable with this rule to continue playing the hand.

The moment the hand ended, my partner reported my revoke.
May 6, 2019
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Gary,

My view is that if you want to pick up a pair to add to your team here and there without accountability, that’s fine. Whether they are paid or not is not the issue.

If you organize a team for the whole cycle, you should be responsible for that team. If you aren’t willing to take responsibility for that team, maybe you have a pro partner who is. If they aren’t either, maybe that shouldn’t be a team.

You would not be able to get it in writing from “the community”. If you want to participate at that level, it’s on you to know what you are doing, or find a pro who does and is willing to take responsibility.

Not to be callous, but in my view either you care enough to take responsibility or you don’t; either is fine, and your view might change over time.
May 6, 2019
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Do I think forfeiting a title is punishment enough?

Absolutely not. I don’t see forfeiting a title earned by cheating as punishment at all.

Is taking away Rosie Ruiz’s Boston Marathon win a “punishment”? Absolutely not - she didn’t win the Marathon, she didn’t even run the whole race. Similarly cheaters didn’t win - they weren’t even playing bridge, they were just pretending to. If your teammates cheated, you didn’t win any more than if you won based on a fabricated scoresheet from the other table. Which is what effectively happened, because bridge wasn’t being played there.

My proposed accountability would be for team captains, whether they are sponsors or not.

The fact that someone happens to employ some professionals should not have any bearing on discipline against them. If a sponsor directly cheats, he gets the same punishment as anyone else. Same for lesser violations, including this one.
May 6, 2019
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Gary,

I haven’t thought through all the details, but in some cases yes. I understand why many might not at first like the idea, but let me explain.

Let’s take what I think should be a clear case, but I am sure will be controversial and many won’t agree. Say I hire a team - or organize it without paying - for a series of major events.

Say that a pair on my team is convicted of collusive cheating while playing on my team.

Say prior to that there had been no disciplinary action against that pair, and I had no actual knowledge of their cheating.

I believe that the game would be better and cleaner if I were held partially responsible and by default faced a serious (but less than the actual cheaters) punishment, such as suspension for a year, despite my lack of knowledge of their cheating.

Why:
1. I believe I could have known, if I had bothered to ask - and if I could have known, I should have known. To my knowledge in all cases of collusive cheating convictions the expert community has at least strongly suspected the cheating pair. If someone can give me counter examples, I am open to changing my view
2. I believe I bear some moral responsibility for their methods when I hold someone else accountable for results. I can’t just say “if you want the money you better win” and then act innocent and surprised when they crossed some line to win. And no, I don’t think that me giving lip service to how they get them - “go win and don’t cheat” absolves me.
3. I think a policy like this would change behavior. People might check players out more thoroughly hiring them. Certainly it would be harder for convicted cheaters to find teams.

I can think of plenty of players that I would feel 100% confident I could hire with next to no risk - which I define as much lower than the risk that you or I would be wrongly convicted of cheating when we absolutely aren’t.

I can also think of some players that I wouldn’t touch with a 10 foot pole; that said I am not playing with them anyway. For a lot of players in the middle, I would have to ask around.

There is absolutely precedent for holding the people at the top accountable; for example CEOs and CFOs have to certify financial statements they don’t themselves prepare. I think this is a good thing.

I don’t think I should be accountable for a pick up team; if I am looking for teammates and decide to play with some other pair I don’t know in a similar situation, that’s different.

I also think that it might make sense that in unusual situations I might not be held accountable, or have a lesser punishment; those situations would include some combination of:
1. The cheating conviction is truly a surprise to the community
2. I made a meaningful effort to ensure there was no cheating going on in my team; the clearest case is where the team itself identifies and reports the cheaters
3. I am a first time offender (as responsible captain)

There are a lot of complexities with this that I don’t have answers to. For example, if I am responsible, should I be able to ask the recorder if there are a lot of issues reported about a pair I am considering? Should I, with that pairs permission, be able to review the issues? I don’t even know what right I have, or should have, to review issues recorded about me, so I definitely don’t know what the answer should be here.
May 6, 2019
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JoAnn,

I think this is a good idea.

I also think team captains should be responsible to some extent for their team members (probably excepting pick-up teams).

The first time that regular teammates are convicted of cheating the captain should be suspended for a year. Second time 5 years, third strike expelled.
May 6, 2019
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I spoke to a few top players who feel strongly about these things and whose opinions I respect.

The general feeling I got was that Lanzarotti was “not worth it”. Not everyone had the same views on every point so this is my attempt to summarize what were a variety of nuanced positions:

1. Process: Lanzarotti served a long suspension already and was readmitted by the ACBL, vs challenged the ban in court. Players seem to give more deference to a bridge organization readmitting a player (even if they disagree with the decision) than a court overturning a ban.
2. Circumstances: lots of other factors that made Lanzarotti not as bad:
- less damage (fewer events won)
- longer ago
- believed to be cheating but only convicted of abuse of UI, vs detailed cheating methods exposed
- not seen as a real expert by some (which perhaps made it feel like less of a betrayal??)

As to the welcomed back, I don’t have a strong opinion. I have spoken to one player who I respect deeply on these issues (and I think the community does as well) who I think believes deeply in rehabilitation and that once someone has served their time they get a clean slate. For the most part I don’t share that view but I respect it.

I think is important for all of us to accept that people who abhor cheating and strongly want a clean game can have different views of any specific situation… ranging from boycotting events to refusing explicitly to play against certain pairs or players to just sitting and thinking when against them and never actually playing to playing against them but being rude or difficult to welcoming them back after a decade plus to making signs or wearing pins etc. Also they may handle different players differently, based on their perception of “how bad” they are… and their views might evolve over time as they consider the best way to clean up the game.
May 4, 2019
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One difference is that the players I talked to felt much more strongly about FN and FS than LB.

Most of the blame surely goes to the ACBL. However since we all know that bridge leagues don’t always make good decisions on these issues, I place some responsibility on any party that made Gary feel like he couldn’t follow his conscience. I am not saying Gary had an obligation to not play, but I don’t think anyone should have felt forced to play if they didn’t feel comfortable.
May 4, 2019
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Gary,

We all have different circumstances and I understand how having a contract to play could make you feel like it wasn’t your decision. Further I don’t think that we should be getting into a mindset where anyone who does play against cheats is criticized for doing so.

That said, I think that going forward written contracts should include provisions for situations like this. I hope that anyone hiring pros would find more of the top players willing to join the team if they knew they would not have to play against at least some list of cheats (which Lanzarotti might or might not have been a part of).

Speaking personally, if I hired someone and we hadn’t either covered the issue in a written contract or discussed it explicitly, I would not expect that my contract trumped that players feelings about who they could and couldn’t play against and I would a) have no issue with their decision not to play and b) feel obligated to communicate this to anyone (partner or teammates) that I had hired in case they felt uncomfortable raising the issue with their employer.

While I don’t feel like we should be criticizing players for choosing to play against someone because these are complex issues where well intended people can differ, for that same reason I think it is wrong to require a partner or teammate to play against a cheater unless the situation has been previously discussed and they have agreed to do so. It may be within their legal rights in the contract, but it’s not right.

Sorry you were put in that situation.
May 4, 2019
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